Periodic Touhou Tournament (Discussion Thread)!

[trancehime]

You guys won't let me lash out at rampant stupidity and cold war witchhunt tactics goddamnit

you just got trolled

Week 5 Scoring Challenge: 10 Desires, Youmu full run
Week 5 Special Challenge: Don't Have A Rage Attack While Reading Touhou Forums

only time i might actually take a score challenge bait

[ebarrett]

you just got trolled

You are absolutely right. And since these days MotK seems to tolerate trolls a lot more than I find it acceptable - au revoir!

[helvetica]

The guy spews an unspeakable amount of nonsense to protect an obvious cheater, then not-so-subtly puts everyone else under suspicion of cheating, and you have the balls to tell me to "drop it"? That's some shitty law enforcement right there.

I didn't even mention names, I just told everyone to drop it.  Yes I clearly singled you out, especially when I said to stop shilling for a cheater.

You guys won't let me lash out at rampant stupidity and cold war witchhunt tactics goddamnit

Damn straight I won't, because this isn't the way to handle it.  Fuming and raging and screaming is doing nothing except painting you in a poor light.  And you're arguing with the shill, not even the suspected cheater himself.  And who cares if he made a blanket accusation that "everyone is cheating"?  I honestly don't see how his word would carry any weight amongst the people that matter.

And does it really matter in the end?  These are your accomplishments.  It doesn't lessen yours just because some random person wants to make a random accusation of cheating.  If you didn't cheat then the replay will speak for itself and reputable players will judge it accordingly.  The community has judged that question mark idiot is a cheater and you're not.  Why would this suddenly change because touhoumaniac decided to pull a McCarthy?

You are absolutely right. And since these days MotK seems to tolerate trolls a lot more than I find it acceptable - au revoir!

Yes, because handling trolls by saying fuck a lot is clearly the right way to handle it instead of, I dunno, ignoring it?  Noone's arguing that you didn't have a valid point, everyone is pretty much in agreement that touhoumaniac was just shilling and trolling.  But your delivery was not the right way to handle it, and at the point it had already been beaten into the ground and it was obvious he wasn't backing off.  The point of my intervention was to just drop the subject entirely.

We've already handled it on an administration end, question mark's replays are considered TAS/cheat replays until he provides significant evidence otherwise.  There's no rule for submitting cheat replays, so he won't get any formal punishment, but at the same time I don't see how he'll ever be welcome in any MotK tournament or score board until he can prove he isn't cheating.

[ebarrett]

Yes, because handling trolls by saying fuck a lot is clearly the right way to handle it instead of, I dunno, ignoring it?  Noone's arguing that you didn't have a valid point, everyone is pretty much in agreement that touhoumaniac was just shilling and trolling.  But your delivery was not the right way to handle it, and at the point it had already been beaten into the ground and it was obvious he wasn't backing off.  The point was to just drop the subject entirely.

My deliveries hadn't been the right way to handle these incidents for a long while now, as you might have noticed it. It's not as if I didn't know I was being inconvenient or inflammatory. But the lack of balls to punish either side is really annoying; when I joined MotK, shitposting wasn't allowed, and rampant trolling wouldn't go unpunished, but these days seem to be gone, apparently because people bitched and complained and forced mods into second-guessing themselves and letting stuff run wild.

Anyway - while I have made a few (very few) friends here, I have no particular sympathy for the community as a whole, and since I can't bruteforce law enforcement into enforcing some, any law, I guess I'll just solve this incident in a much simpler way.

"This is what we call 'making an exit'".

[Vibri]

On touhou forums it's probably more appropriate to call that a ragequit 8)

[helvetica]

My deliveries hadn't been the right way to handle these incidents for a long while now, as you might have noticed it. It's not as if I didn't know I was being inconvenient or inflammatory. But the lack of balls to punish either side is really annoying; when I joined MotK, shitposting wasn't allowed, and rampant trolling wouldn't go unpunished, but these days seem to be gone, apparently because people bitched and complained and forced mods into second-guessing themselves and letting stuff run wild.

Unpunished?  Who said anyone was going unpunished?  That was an ultimatum and a last warning.  If he continued to post about it then he was going to get the stick.  As for "lack of balls" to punish, oh trust me, there's no timidness when it comes to dealing with trolls.  But at the same time we can't intervene if we don't know about the issue.  You decided to take it in your own hands and go vigilante instead of letting us intervene.  The staff honestly had absolutely no idea of this situation until your inflammatory post got reported.  None of his posts got reported, just your vitriol.

How many times do we have to say this?  If you don't report the problem then it will never get noticed.  We are not psychic, we can't see every single problem going on.  There's only a handful of us and there's hundreds, if not thousands of yous.  If you had just minded your business and reported it he would have been dealt with.  As it stands now we can't punish him without punishing you for your overreaction so instead we chose to tell both of you to back off.  If either of you continue then we'll be breaking out the sticks.

Anyway - while I have made a few (very few) friends here, I have no particular sympathy for the community as a whole, and since I can't bruteforce law enforcement into enforcing some, any law, I guess I'll just solve this incident in a much simpler way.

"This is what we call 'making an exit'".

Yes that clearly solves everything by an hero'ing yourself.  You just played straight into the troll's hands by getting riled enough to stomp out.  Either way if this is your idea of keeping the peace, by beating people with rage and vitriol then I can truthfully say we neither want the help nor appreciate it.  We don't appreciate being forced to intervene because you decided to take matters into your own hands instead of doing the right thing and just reporting and walking away.

This is just like real life.  If you're punching some dude's lights out after he took a swing at you (or a bystander) you're both going to get arrested for assault, regardless of who started it.  Could you get let off due to mitigating circumstances?  Probably, but that doesn't make your action any less inappropriate and undesirable.  The ends do not justify the means.  We will never condone people acting vigilante and trashtalking and fighting back against "trolls", as the last thing we need is 1800 different interpretations on what is a "troll".

Enough on this subject, if you have any commentary you wish to add or questions to ask then PM me or another staff member.  This thread has been derailed enough.

[ark]

Because that would add an additional layer of restarting as I would need not only optimal ufo collection but optimal survival play as well. Having to restart because of getting hit by some random bullet coming out of nowhere on Kogasa condemning oneself to yet another 5 minutes of busywork until you can get back to where you were at. Considering how much time it would take to get a decent run through to Stage 4 and not screw it up from there it would only mean more running through the same levels again.

stop restarting and just go with it

[Byaaakuren]

Week 5 Scoring Challenge: 10 Desires, Youmu full run
Week 5 Special Challenge: Don't Have A Rage Attack While Reading Touhou Forums

Haha, yes. I would like to have a blind Ten Desires run. Maybe a Phantasmagoria challenge as well?

[LHCling]

Because that would add an additional layer of restarting as I would need not only optimal ufo collection but optimal survival play as well. Having to restart because of getting hit by some random bullet coming out of nowhere on Kogasa condemning oneself to yet another 5 minutes of busywork until you can get back to where you were at. Considering how much time it would take to get a decent run through to Stage 4 and not screw it up from there it would only mean more running through the same levels again.

stop restarting and just go with it

Don't throw away games if you're losing.

etc.

If you were trying to make a carbon copy (literal copy more or less) of a WR-level run from scratch with no experience beforehand; you're obviously doing it wrong. For both difficulties that I submitted runs to, I used custom routes which I derived beforehand (year-old routes, to be specific), and made slight adjustments for this particular week. Even then I couldn't execute them the way I wanted. Unless you're some sort of specialist, you should've been taking a step-by-step approach to scoring, slowly incorporating scoring elements into your run, and not trying to do them all at the same time. The scoring is, in fact, fairly non-linear after all. Meaning that you won't get a rather proportionate amount after each stage (or rather, supposed to).

[shadowbringer]

I have a little question (though this one may be subjective), this question feels to me more related to this thread than the scoring discussion one because it refers more to the games we've played so far (while people could get confused if I did the same question in the scoring discussion thread, since there are more games to which I could be asking this question and people wouldn't remember or focus as well as if I talked about the games we've played so far)

so the question I want to ask is: regarding risk/reward ratio, what would be the "do"s and "don't"s in the games we've played so far, considering the various players' ability range? (for example, tips for newcomers, intermediate players and more advanced ones?)

Also, wouldn't that lost life make a difference in later stages? (I mean, for those lives lost at the beginning, not at the middle. For some reason, though, I tend to keep playing even if I mess up one life while playing on arcade cabs -- not emulators --, more defensively though)

Also... (wasn't it *one* question? :p ) ... how do you people memorize stages? I feel that if I don't restart (taking a brief pause, most times), I may forget what hit me.


Lastly, sorry for not playing UFO this week. The special challenges were being surprisingly addictive, while I still had a bad impression about trying to score in SA (this one I think would cause more restarts from trying to graze the large fairies before Kisume, if I kept playing) and I didn't have an idea about which UFOs I should go for. Plus, I didn't have much time to grind GFW (even tried to 1cc it to unlock Extra but I can't ignore score, and get frustrated if I feel clueless and/or die too early)

[Paper Conan]

Hey hey, people. I was the first one to recommend such run :smug:
I also second a blind-run for TD.

Hooooray for having the lowest scores all around and being too lazy to do a complete, unlaggy run of UFO's Extra stage!

[LHCling]

I can't say much for the newer people, as scoring requires mastery over certain elements of the given game. But:

Do: watch replays, and work out why a player does something "differently", and how much of a benefit it is to their score (also note whether or not it's an instant increase, or an investment)
Don't: copy everything; take it one step at a time (a 1cc without excessive bombspam is a good starting point)

That's the general idea.

With regard to a single lost life, it's not significant at all unless you're aiming WR-level scores. If you're going by the logic of "Oh I'll just restart and that mistake won't happen again", you should probably reconsider your thoughts. Because I guarantee you that you will make a(nother) mistake sooner or later than that during other runs, and you'll restart there as well. Repeat ad infinitum. Hell if I had that mindset, I would restart every time I got hit supergrazing Ichirin. Yes there are times where runs become non-salvageable because you died too many times. But one? No.

With regard to arcade games, they give you a lower number of lives to work with (over the course of the game). By logic, it would then follow that each mistake is naturally more punishing.

And memorizing stages? Rumour has it that scorerunners hit the restart button a lot during Stage Practice.

Cut: ohai

[chirpy13]

I second Baity on low-level scoring, being a low level scorer myself.  Learn the scoring mechanics for the game (a given), figure out the specific points where you can improve your score, and then decide whether the methods to do so are worth it for you.  For example, a beginner sure as hell would not be sitting behind Keine and grazing her midboss spell in IN, but farming time off familiars or grazing Wriggle's last two cards or salamander shield lasers may be something to consider since they're pretty easy/low risk (and early into the run for Wriggle's case).

As for memorizing... I'm not sure what to say there, I just do it.  I generally know most of the stages more or less inside out after a couple playthroughs.  I occasionally forget what side of the screen something's going to appear on, or how many waves of something there are, but for the most part I have no trouble memorizing stages.  If you don't learn them that fast, all I can really say is to play them more until you do.  Doing lots of practice runs is especially important in UFO so you don't get your blues and rainbows mixed up.  Survival runs aren't as big a deal though, since you're only really aiming for greens and reds with no specific timing involved, save for if you need enough point items to load them up before they fly away.  I can usually go almost exclusively red and not miss out on much.

[Zengeku]

stop restarting and just go with it

Why? If a run is not going optimal you're missing out on a lot of points rendering it useless.

If you were trying to make a carbon copy (literal copy more or less) of a WR-level run from scratch with no experience beforehand; you're obviously doing it wrong. For both difficulties that I submitted runs to, I used custom routes which I derived beforehand (year-old routes, to be specific), and made slight adjustments for this particular week. Even then I couldn't execute them the way I wanted. Unless you're some sort of specialist, you should've been taking a step-by-step approach to scoring, slowly incorporating scoring elements into your run, and not trying to do them all at the same time. The scoring is, in fact, fairly non-linear after all. Meaning that you won't get a rather proportionate amount after each stage (or rather, supposed to).

I wasn't trying to completely copy one. I just tried to imitate the UFO collection the best i could for the first three stages and then improvise from there.

[ark]

Why? If a run is not going optimal you're missing out on a lot of points rendering it useless.

If you waste so much time restarting then you'll never get even a half-decent run. Don't restart unless it's obvious that you won't reach your goal, and even if it is, you could still get some practice on the later portions.

Ok, I admit to restarting if something goes wrong on stage 1, but at that point I don't lose much time by restarting. Much beyond that, though, I just keep going, even if I make some stupid mistakes.

[touhoumaniac]

If you waste so much time restarting then you'll never get even a half-decent run. Don't restart unless it's obvious that you won't reach your goal, and even if it is, you could still get some practice on the later portions.

Ok, I admit to restarting if something goes wrong on stage 1, but at that point I don't lose much time by restarting. Much beyond that, though, I just keep going, even if I make some stupid mistakes.

+1 to this. From my experience i can say that touhou also becomes much more enjoyable

[Zengeku]

+1 to this. From my experience i can say that touhou also becomes much more enjoyable

Not gonna get much enjoyment if you don't succeed. Then you are just gonna have wasted 30 minutes. That's all. Heck, its not like this is too fun to begin with. 3 minute load times between bosses and everything. Its not like those pathetic excuses for stages can be considered gameplay.

[Janitor Morgan]

Not gonna get much enjoyment if you don't succeed. Then you are just gonna have wasted 30 minutes.

One would probably waste the same amount of time by constantly restarting every time a stage turns out to be suboptimal. I am personally not a scorerunner, but that's the logic I follow.

[Drake]

I waste more time restarting than doing full runs :C

[Iryan]

I only take part in the special challenges on the ludicrous levels so that playing every run to its fullest and restarting all the time are not exclusive.  BV

[Zengeku]

One would probably waste the same amount of time by constantly restarting every time a stage turns out to be suboptimal. I am personally not a scorerunner, but that's the logic I follow.

Nevermind my previous post. I was a bit of an irritating irl situation and didn't really have the patience to discuss how i should approach scoring and UFO in the same sentence. Normally when going for score I don't even bother restart unless i screw up really bad. (unless in MoF in which avoiding death is mandatory, but surviving the first three, and maybe the 4th too, stages is pretty easy. Even on Lunatic.)

[chirpy13]

Looks like no 10D this week, Reitaisai's postponed until further notice.

So what now?  PoFV and EoSD?  MS and LLS?!

[Romantique Tp]

Please no versus games, they aren't meant for scoring and survival challenges. It doesn't help that the AI is random as hell.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Pretty much why I had my PoFV scores removed from the scoreboard. The fact that scoring is pretty much random in that regard is so bad. The random attacks in other games can be an issue, but a game that is complete randomness is just no.

[shadowbringer]

suggestions
special: EoSD no-bomb
score: LLS   (since all post-IN whole-numbered games were used, unless you want to play as other characters. Since I usually play it with ReimuA -- due to being the default character and me being too lazy to memorize how to play with other characters.. even though graze isn't as important here -- I don't have a character suggestion)

It's a pity that Reitaisai 8 got cancelled, but still I'm hyped for the full version. Better luck about this date, and of course, my condolences for those who've been afflicted by the tsunami and earthquakes.

[The Greatest Dog]

So, I'mma just randomly drop in to say  we should have a 90FPS challenge. Or at least a 75FPS run.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Pretty sure we ruled out speed increase challenges from the start. On the basis that not everyone can run the games at those speeds. Also the fact that many TAS replays already spoof the FPS as something higher(though I don't think I've seen a TAS that showed 90, I know I've seen ones that showed 75).

(unless it was a TASing competition, but that's different).

I don't know how well a TASing competition would go with people that actually knew the games. Part of the ridiculousness of TAS replays comes from people doing stupid crap.

That's something that would be saved for a different topic entirely. Tournament topic is obviously for 60 FPS play not counting possible minor slowdown. That and I wouldn't be interested in TASing anything anyway.

[Sapz]

Week 4 is up! I hope you guys like grazing. :V

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Maybe if I can actually get that EoSD VSync patch to work I'll submit something. How the hell did I 1cc Lunatic without that? Though MarisA 1cc would be harder than the one I did.

[chirpy13]

I don't know how well a TASing competition would go with people that actually knew the games. Part of the ridiculousness of TAS replays comes from people doing stupid crap.

That's something that would be saved for a different topic entirely. Tournament topic is obviously for 60 FPS play not counting possible minor slowdown. That and I wouldn't be interested in TASing anything anyway.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply we should do any, just that that's the kind of place those replays should go since it would actually be fair then.

Week 4 is up! I hope you guys like grazing. :V

I like grazing!  The question is how good am I at it... I think I'll work on EoSD for now and hope someone posts a few PCB replays by then.  I'm particularly interested in how Heartbeam's going to handle the PCB side of this round.