Author Topic: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III  (Read 239434 times)

chum

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #960 on: February 21, 2013, 01:16:12 PM »
4 hours of Komachi 90 fps attempts. 4 runs made it to Shikieiki. None of those had 4+ lives.

This is really hard. Komachi's scope messes me up so bad, I'm trying to get better with it but I really just suck with Komachi...

Mesarthim

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #961 on: February 22, 2013, 10:02:51 AM »
Well THIS is a great way of how not to play Touhou 9 as Cirno, especially on extra.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 10:07:10 AM by Mesarthim »

Hard 1cc: 4 (LLS), 6 (EoSD),7 (PCB),8 (IN),9 (PoFV),10 (MoF),11 (SA),12 (UFO),12.8 (GFW)13 (TD), 14 (DDC), 15 (LoLK)
Lunatic 1cc: 8 (IN), 9 (PoFV), 11 (SA), 12.8 (GFW), 14 (DDC)
Extra Clear: 4 (LLS) ,5 (MS) ,6 (EoSD),7 (PCB),8 (IN),9 (PoFV),10 (MoF),11 (SA),12 (UFO),12.8 (GFW),13(TD), 14 (DDC), 15 (LoLK)

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #962 on: February 22, 2013, 05:42:32 PM »
I hate Kyouko's second non, it's pretty much and auto-trance for me 80% of the time. And it cuts into Amplify Echo so I can never "officially" capture it.

Oh and yesterday I died to midboss Keine's opener. Yay.

RNG

  • Lord of all that Bullshits
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #963 on: February 22, 2013, 07:00:47 PM »
First wave is straightforward if you're directly below her. Second wave should be easy if you move to the opposite reflecting barrier than the one she's in. TBH her first is much much scarier on Lunatic for me.

chum

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #964 on: February 24, 2013, 12:00:38 PM »
Plenty more runs. Best run got to 3rd round Shikieiki and survived until 02:26. No 70 million extend. I never get the 70 million extend unless I lost more rounds than I'm supposed to.

How the fuck do you score with Komachi? If I could just get more lives, because 2 or 3 lives for Shikieiki just doesn't cut it, I could win.

Sakurei

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #965 on: February 24, 2013, 01:54:38 PM »
well, this may sound weird coming from me, who can't score in PoFV for shits, but the best way to make up for the one round you're not supposed to lose is to get large chains. in my winning run, I had a chain of over 700 and it made up for the fact tht I didn't have to fight a third round against yuka or reimu. of course, simply scoring higher on average than me will world better, but eh. stuff.

beating eiki in the 3rd round is definitely possible. I had several time that were past 2:45, just never lasted these last 15 seconds. second round is kind of unrealistic, though. everything is still really fast.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #966 on: February 24, 2013, 02:35:45 PM »
I died to Imperishable Shooting.

The LAST WAVE of Imperishable Shooting.

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Getting clipped since Feb. 2012.

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chum

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #967 on: February 24, 2013, 04:24:42 PM »
beating eiki in the 3rd round is definitely possible

I think a great deal of luck is required, though, at least for a player like me. 4th round is when I imagine it'll start to get doable for me.  I've also had some peculiar wins, Yuka lost first round at 1:38 I think, and Reimu lost first round in less than 2 minutes too at one point. Very odd. Most of my attempts end with a "the hell did you just glitch me for, game?" way  :(

Sakurei

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #968 on: February 24, 2013, 04:51:19 PM »
yeh. and you need to play it safe. so reflect as few bullets as possible. cancelling them is better. if she casts a level 2 spell, try to dodge it instead of using fairies to get rid of it. if you reflect half the thing and eiki reflects half of that (aka you get 1/4 back) it'll be hell due to her vortexes. having as few bullets on screen as you can is probably you goal if you don't have another life.

the odd winning times occured to me, too. it's presumably just coincidence considering I restarted the story mode easily 100 times. there ar ebound to be early wins in there at some point. nothing to brood over, imo.

Zil

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #969 on: February 24, 2013, 07:13:16 PM »
I think the most annoying thing as far as luck goes is how many times Lily White decides to show up in the rounds you're hoping to win, and to a lesser extent, how often Eiki uses level 2 spells. Like Sakurei said, try not to reflect either of those. For Lily, using a bunch of spells to cancel everything is probably the best thing to do. What's really annoying about her is that even if you reflect nothing, Eiki may still reflect a ton of crap on her own side.

About scoring, in the early stages it's mostly about the clear bonus rather than keeping your chain really high, since the matches won't last long enough for that to matter much anyway. You should use as many level 2's as possible, and stay low on the screen to avoid cancelling bullets. Try to trigger boss attacks through spell points, which might mean resetting them on purpose. And the max combo bonus is probably most important. When you get a huge wall of stuff, particularly towards the end of the match, try to let the fairies cover as much of it as possible, and then shoot just a single shot to clear as much of it as you can. One really good combo can be worth millions in the clear bonus.

In the later stages it basically boils down to surviving as long as you can without getting hit.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #970 on: February 25, 2013, 08:14:48 PM »
Had two more UFO NBNV attempts today (on top of a rather extensive practice session)

First one was really dumb. - Dies to Kogasa's final spellcard and then once more at the circling at the end of Stage 3. To top it all off, i die three times against Murasa on her 3rd non, 3rd card and 4th card and game over there.

Second run made it a bit further. Still had me die on the 2nd orb spam in Stage 3 and then once on KKS because I for some reason was positioned too high up the screen and got tagged by a fist. Really stupid. Stage 4 claimed lives on 2nd spell and 3rd spell both in quite annoying ways and the run ultimately terminated at Stage 5 against Greatest Treasure.

It's both embarassing and annoying to keep dying at easy parts like this but I guess there's no helping it other than keeping trying. I plan to do some different things simultaneously though because to keep playing credits of this game will make me nuts and playing the game when it's not being fun but tedious is not going to produce good results anyway.

Yatakarasu

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #971 on: February 26, 2013, 03:16:16 AM »
I died....twice to Kanako's "Mountain of Faith" normal card. Causing me to game over. Dammit, MarisaC why is your shot type so annoying sometimes? You just don't want me to clear you don't you?!

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes

Goldom

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #972 on: February 26, 2013, 07:20:38 AM »
Just playing some Normal mode Wriggle to pad out my perfect chart. You can totally see here how I can regularly play this game at Lunatic.


Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #973 on: February 26, 2013, 03:08:17 PM »
I died to Koishi's first spellcard  :colonveeplusalpha:

Vincent_Prismriver

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #974 on: February 26, 2013, 04:01:38 PM »
Once, in PCB, I've reached Yuyuko's Last Spell on Normal difficulty, but with only two bombs ...
Then I've died when there were.. like... 4 seconds left.
Ragequitted ;__;

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #975 on: February 26, 2013, 05:52:45 PM »
Two from yesterday.

First off, I'm trying to complete all the spellcards in IN practice, by difficulty level. Only Easy card I have left to do is Hourai Elixir, which I've tried Byakuren knows how many times now... most recently, I failed with less than two seconds left. And it was such a good run too.

Secondly, I managed to whiff a Lotus Land Story Normal run at the last possible second, with Yuuka's health bar in the red - so close that the game actually recorded my score as an All clear. (I managed the 1CC on my very next run - interestingly enough, my first normal mode 1CC ever! Though it wasn't on default lives.)

Yatakarasu

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #976 on: February 26, 2013, 07:14:52 PM »
I always wanted to 4CC TD on Hard. I just kinda gave up after I game over'd to Soga. Yes, Soga. I guess her lightning was just to tempting to not run into.

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #977 on: February 26, 2013, 11:37:07 PM »
I died twice on Yuugi on normal. It's one of those days when everything goes wrong. I mean everything!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:39:15 PM by Makedounia »
Extra stages cleared : EoSD, PCB, PCB Phantasm, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #978 on: February 27, 2013, 12:04:10 AM »
and stay low on the screen to avoid cancelling bullets
Playing it safe in early rounds pffffffttt
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Zil

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #979 on: February 27, 2013, 12:41:28 AM »
Playing it safe in early rounds pffffffttt
Hmm? I mean when you use a spell, being lower means you'll cancel less bullets, so you can reflect them instead. If you're too high, you just eat away all the bullets you're creating.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #980 on: February 28, 2013, 01:30:02 AM »
Died on Nue's last card... again. I'm not even mad, since this was fifth time I made it that far. I WILL beat Nue one day! 
Extra stages cleared : EoSD, PCB, PCB Phantasm, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #981 on: February 28, 2013, 03:05:30 AM »
cancel less bullets, so you can reflect them instead
I misunderstood your advice, so the demeanor of my response no longer makes sense.  And so I must now raise a different eyebrow.

I think the tradeoff works the opposite way, if there's a tradeoff at all.  I can't prove it, but I'll explain my position.  And all of this is likely irrelevant to those scoring for survival and not scoring for, uh, score.

When you jump to the top of the screen to use a spell (to cancel an influx of bullets either from an incoming enemy spell or enemy cancel, which are the only instances where this would make a difference), you will usually spell-cancel more bullets than you would have chain-cancelled, and the resulting, additional influx of bullets and spirits (after the AI cancels some of the bullets [and newly created spirits] you sent over) makes the value of your future chains increase more quickly than it otherwise would have.  It's a downpayment for future points.  It isn't a sure thing, as sometimes the AI doesn't cancel squat, but it works often enough to give a return on investment.  And the risk is minimal because, early on, there aren't enough bullets on the screen for chains to significantly increase the score counter (and, later on, there will usually be enough bullets that you won't be trying to jump through them to get to the top of the screen).


This is sort of like how, when struggling to maintain a chain in the first twenty-ish seconds, it's possible to stop chaining, let your score counter drop to zero, and shortly thereafter get a large chain that raises your score counter higher than it would have been if you had tried to maintain what you had through constant chaining.  [edit: unlike the rest of this garbage, that part is still true]  In both situations, there aren't enough bullets on the screen for chaining to be worthwhile.  Now, if you could always time early bullet influxes with fairy chains that cover most of the top of the screen, then you'd never want to spell-cancel - and I'd agree that you should always opt for the cross-screen fairy chain instead of the spell-cancel when you have the luck, vision, planning, and luck to set one up - but that happens too infrequently to make it the optimal, default action.

But - speaking to both survival and scoring, and regardless of the above - it's more important that level-two spells be used in the first minute to bridge chains, as needed, and to simply be used, in order to give the AI more bullets to cancel.  So, even if it proves beneficial to spell-cancel, this should only be done when it smoothly coincides with everything else.  And about proving/disproving... I suppose this could be tested with dozens of runs and meticulous replay-watching, but I'm not motivated enough to do that (and I'd question the sanity of anyone who would be).

I'm glad this was brought up, though, as I hadn't given it much thought before.  I feel good about how I deal with this in the early going, but I'm certain there are situations in mid/late-game where I automatically spell-cancel when I should try to chain-cancel, so I'll try to keep this in mind once I get back to playing to see where I can improve.



edit: tangentially, I feel obligated to mention that I never reset the score counter in the first five rounds in order to get a boss cancel.  I'm almost always able to get the score counter to bonus for a few seconds in at least one of the rounds, which translates to a norm of 30 million going into round six (more if Reimu is one of the opponents, since I'm always able to get bonus points from her).  For comparison, when I'm not able to get to bonus, I get about 25 million, so that's 5 million from pushing the score counter to bonus.  Looked at a couple of my most recent replays, when I was using Mystia and Marisa, and I was getting to bonus in about 1:20 (Reimu in 1:00, Reisen and probably one or two others somewhere in between).  Can't afford to take a hit, of course, but if you can manage that then I think it's worth it.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 12:00:36 AM by K.B. »
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Zil

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #982 on: February 28, 2013, 04:10:09 AM »
When you jump to the top of the screen to use a spell (to cancel an influx of bullets either from an incoming enemy spell or enemy cancel, which are the only instances where this would make a difference), you will usually spell-cancel more bullets than you would have chain-cancelled, and the resulting, additional influx of bullets and spirits (after the AI cancels some of the bullets [and newly created spirits] you sent over) makes the value of your future chains increase more quickly than it otherwise would have.
Alright. It's possible that I don't see what mean, but I think you're under the impression that when you cancel bullets by using a spell, those bullets will be sent to the opponent's field. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The bullets just disappear. I would agree with you otherwise. In fact, I used to think that spell-cancelled bullets were reflected as well, but now I'm pretty sure they aren't. For instance, try playing a match against the AI and just lose the first round after filling your spell gauge. Then wait for the AI to use a spell, or for Lily to appear, then cast a level 4, and I think you'll see that you definitely aren't sending every pellet on your screen over to the other side.

Unless I'm missing your point and this actually has nothing to do with it. (Or I'm just wrong.)

Quote
edit: tangentially, I feel obligated to mention that I never reset the score counter in the first five rounds in order to get a boss cancel.  I'm almost always able to get the score counter to bonus for a few seconds in at least one of the rounds, which translates to a norm of 30 million going into round six (more if Reimu is one of the opponents, since I'm always able to get bonus points from her).  For comparison, when I'm not able to get to bonus, I get about 25 million, so that's 5 million from pushing the score counter to bonus.  Looked at a couple of my most recent replays, when I was using Mystia and Marisa, and I was getting to bonus in about 1:20 (Reimu in 1:00, Reisen and probably one or two others somewhere in between).  Can't afford to take a hit, of course, but if you can manage that then I think it's worth it.
What I said about resetting the counter was mainly referring to 90fps runs with Komachi, where I think it's very unlikely to reach bonus. I found that even when I felt like I was chaining things well, my score came out lower than it would have if I had done worse, or in particular, if I took lots of hits, since that gives you more spells to use and ultimately boosts the clear bonus. Under normal circumstances I agree with what you're saying here, unless maybe the enemy is Youmu or Lyrica, since they give you so few bullets to reflect.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:17:52 AM by Zil »

Yatakarasu

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #983 on: February 28, 2013, 05:52:53 AM »
Wow. I could not catch a break on Murasa tonight. She killed me four times. Last time was at the very last second. And that run was looking so good too....
Guess it's time to practice the stage eight thousand times.

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes

chum

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #984 on: February 28, 2013, 01:52:28 PM »
Well I've still been keeping up with that challenge on and off, think I've made it to Shikieiki at least 15 times, and I usually have 3 lives for her now... but I really need that 4th life to win!

I also always get Lily White to show up twice on the final round (once within the first minute, then once again within 2) Is there some non-random element to hear appearances or am I just incredibly unlucky? I also like pacifying for a little while to try to decrease the amount of time spent with shitstorms, but maybe that's not a good idea?

I think It's a great challenge in a way (certainly enjoyable) but my only real problem is that I don't score high enough and that's putting me off a bit, so unless I just magically start scoring higher, I think I'll be calling it quits (or taking it easy and only doing it if I really can't think of anything better)

Interestingly I tried some other characters and couldn't 1cc with any of them (bar medicine and aya, which really are pointless chars) not even Reimu, who I expected to win with.


Sakurei

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #985 on: March 01, 2013, 08:01:20 PM »
chum, it took me 6 weeks, so don't feel too bad about it. it's just Zil who does it in 2 credits. I made it to eiki at least 50 times and lost every time (but once, hey). your progress is definitely faster than me. afer the first 1 1/2 (or however long you're at it), I just barely got better at reimu and yuka, but still usually had maybe 1 extra life for eiki.

I'd say the 4th life makes it a certain win, but as i said befre, doing it with 3 is definitely possible, even if you need some luck. Lily white is completely random to my knowledge, so you're probably just really really unlucky.

good luck for when you try again. it's definitely balls hard. I wouldn't blame anyone stopping, really.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #986 on: March 01, 2013, 11:57:48 PM »
The bullets just disappear.
You're right.  I should have noticed that at some point during these two or three hundred hours, but I didn't.

This is embarrassing.  Never mind everything I said about spell-cancelling.

Thanks for clarifying.  Breaking my habit could be a trick, but I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of difference it makes.  Both score-wise and chaos-wise.

Quote
What I said about resetting the counter was mainly referring to 90fps runs with Komachi, where I think it's very unlikely to reach bonus.
I forgot about the context.  Again, you're right.  Sorry about that.
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Jmyster

  • Knives
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #987 on: March 07, 2013, 11:45:38 PM »
Okay, first run of Lotus Land Story, and I  nearly cleared the game. I've totally got this second run!

Alllright, perfect through stage 3...*twitch* Oh. That wasn't supposed to be *twitch* but I thought I *twitch* BOMB! Okay, I'm okay, I just got to *killed by bullet swarm spawning at end of bomb*.

 :fail:

It wasn't even hard, just a spectacular combination of bad timing and twitching.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #988 on: March 08, 2013, 03:09:16 AM »
Two perfect Phantasms lost do DBDB. Yeah, today has been a nice day.

Yatakarasu

  • Always failing, sometimes winning!
  • Fail mode activate!
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #989 on: March 08, 2013, 06:34:27 AM »
(SA Normal run) I ran into a bullet after I downed Utsuho's last card and game over'd. (MoF Extra run) I game over'd to Suwako's last card when it had sliver of health left.

:colonveeplusalpha:

Yep, those were definitely the dumbest things I've done in a while.

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes