東方夢時空 ～ Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream

[KirbyComment]

Both, to a degree, but much more the later. The Ellen score for instance required some good luck to get, but still only around 5 tries, and most of my non Lunatic scores took even fewer than that. What's important to realize is that the first round against Yumemi can last forever, so your ability to prolong it has a huge impact on your score. There's also a lot more subtlety to using spells than just spamming them and hoping they come back at a good time, like watching the opponent's screen to help make predictions, knowing where to stand to guide things where you want (your x-coordinate effects how long it takes fireballs to reach you, for instance, which I don't think a lot of people take into consideration) etc.

Yeah, I figured that for the most part it comes down to luck to get a good score like that. In the runs I did so far I tried to stay slightly ahead of the enemy patterns. So if a really good enemy pattern shows up (such as the upside-down pyramid of enemies that come from the top) I try to use a Level 2 Spell to hope the spell triggers as that enemy pattern shows up at the opponent's screen. But it still ends up being a thing of whether the CPU cooperates and whether the enemy pattern I want actually shows up, so I think even if you try to do stuff like that, it still stays luck-based (even if the odds of success are a little higher).

As far as first round Yumemi goes, I just try to survive for as long as I can. I have never beaten first round Yumemi on any difficulty, so I just try to survive as long as possible and hope for the best. I also noticed for 2 characters on Easy you beat Yumemi first round. Is that because it's less optimal to die once for those particular characters? Because I would think that dying once is more optimal since you should be able to get more than 1 million during the second round.

As far as the earlier rounds go, I just hope to get good luck from the start. Most of the time I don't get it though, because the opponent runs into everything or refuses to counter my Level 2 spells. If I get a bad start like that, I just reset. I assume there's no real way to consistently get good scores in the earlier rounds...

Also, what is with fireballs having different speeds depending on your x-position or guiding other things where I want them to be? How does that work? Because I'm actually not aware of that...

[Zil]

I think it's better to be behind the enemy patterns rather than ahead of them. Spells can be reflected at least decently with just about any pattern, since the bullets tend to go everywhere, and you're not concerned with the enemy getting massive combos. You just want them to be big enough to send you some fireballs. Furthermore, knowing what kind of pattern you will get and (even more importantly) where it will appear from is extremely useful.

I wouldn't suicide for extra rounds against Yumemi on Easy, regardless of character. Your clear bonus on the second round will likely be much lower than it would have been for the first.

About fireballs, when they're generated on the opponents screen, they have to fly to their destination at the top of yours before they start falling. So assuming the fireballs were aimed at you, as they often are, the further you are to the left, the longer it will take them to appear.
Look at this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoibq3J2uFY
All the stuff that was reflected from my spell had chosen a spot to appear from at the top of my screen. The things sent to the right appeared earlier than the things sent to the left. That's why the wall of fire was diagonal instead of straight across. The bullets are also aimed in your general direction.

Also I don't recommend playing this game on Easy mode. It's extremely luck heavy. It's true that there's luck on every mode, but the higher you go, the less important it is.

[KirbyComment]

I think it's better to be behind the enemy patterns rather than ahead of them. Spells can be reflected at least decently with just about any pattern, since the bullets tend to go everywhere, and you're not concerned with the enemy getting massive combos. You just want them to be big enough to send you some fireballs. Furthermore, knowing what kind of pattern you will get and (even more importantly) where it will appear from is extremely useful.

I wouldn't suicide for extra rounds against Yumemi on Easy, regardless of character. Your clear bonus on the second round will likely be much lower than it would have been for the first.

About fireballs, when they're generated on the opponents screen, they have to fly to their destination at the top of yours before they start falling. So assuming the fireballs were aimed at you, as they often are, the further you are to the left, the longer it will take them to appear.
Look at this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoibq3J2uFY
All the stuff that was reflected from my spell had chosen a spot to appear from at the top of my screen. The things sent to the right appeared earlier than the things sent to the left. That's why the wall of fire was diagonal instead of straight across. The bullets are also aimed in your general direction.

Also I don't recommend playing this game on Easy mode. It's extremely luck heavy. It's true that there's luck on every mode, but the higher you go, the less important it is.

I know that if I'm behind enemy patterns it's easier for me to predict at what time enemies appear where. I know being behind makes it a little easier to get a 51,200 combo for a Boss Attack.

So it's more optimal to never die? Well, that makes scoring more difficult for me then, because I never live through Yumemi Round 1 for long enough so she dies before I do. My Easy Reimu run that got 28,224,220 points actually was a run where I died twice. I somehow died to Chiyuri and then obviously died to Round 1 Yumemi and I still got such a good score. That's what made me kinda think that dying at Yumemi isn't a big deal. Either way, I'm pretty much forced to take one death before beating Yumemi because I'm good at video games  :3

And regarding fireballs and whatnot, I would assume that, based on your explanation, if you stay on one side of the screen, the fireballs generally go towards the side where you're at. So if you know ahead of time that enemies show up on the left side, you should stay on the left side to counter fireballs and projectiles.

Also, I just do Easy runs now because that's what I start with now that I try to do more serious attempts. I will move on to Normal and higher after being done with Easy (kind of like how I'm doing with SoEW), even though I have yet to 1cc Hard and Lunatic because I never did runs of those difficulties before. I do understand that Easy has more luck involved than any other difficulty, just because of opponents pretty much dying on purpose early game, while on rare occasions, they put up a fight, which is what you want.

With this combination of paying attention to the enemy patters of the opponent, hitting enemies with a certain timing to counter lots of stuff, staying on a certain part of the screen, etc. , it's obvious to say that making use of these factors consistently is just too hard, because you have to pay attention to alot of stuff at the same time and because RNG can screw you over (at least on Easy).

[Zil]

Easy - Mima
Zil - 34,114,780 - ALL - AutofireOff - Image

Well, good luck in your future runs. It's always nice having some company in this thread.

[KirbyComment]

Well, good luck in your future runs. It's always nice having some company in this thread.

I wish I could do runs now, except that 2 days ago, while I was doing Chiyuri (Easy) attempts, my right arrow key decided to die. So I have to wait until Saturday when it's repaired so I can do runs again...  :ohdear:

I could actually get my best friend to submit runs, but he just doesn't think to do it. He's really good, but he thinks his runs are bad, so he doesn't submit anything. I need to convince him... (plus I would like competition so I can see how well he does in all the games...)


So this right arrow key should've taken 2 days to fix, but it took more like 21. Anyway, I can finally do runs again.

Easy - Rikako
KirbyComment - 21,739,610 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot (No-Miss)

Easy - Yumemi
KirbyComment - 25,377,370 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Reimu
KirbyComment - 41,086,520 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot1 - Screenshot2
(Take that, Zil! )

Normal - Mima
KirbyComment - 38,455,410 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Marisa
KirbyComment - 32,085,850 - 9 - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Ellen
KirbyComment - 42,275,870 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot
(and that!)

Normal - Kotohime
KirbyComment - 35,620,750 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Kana
KirbyComment - 34,738,460 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot
(and that!)

Normal - Rikako
KirbyComment - 30,396,130 - 9 - AutofireOff - Screenshot

[Zil]

How sneaky of you! I didn't even notice these. I'll have to plan my vengeance.

Also, I've written a thing which my fellow (and hopefully future) poddophiles can perhaps learn something from.

http://pastebin.com/PAMXUkBS

It's just an explanation of various things I've learned about boss attacks and spell points over the years, ranging from the stupidly obvious to the relatively obscure. I may attempt to write about other things if I can find the motivation.

-

another edit: I look back on times like this, and it's kind of amazing to me how much of what once mystified me is now explained. Surreal.

[Karisa]

KirbyComment, you might want to make a new post instead of editing an old post, if the thread is dropping so far back-- this thread and the SoEW thread were so far down that they were off-screen when I loaded the forum, so I wasn't seeing the "new" on the threads.

On an unrelated note, I've noticed this thread uses "ALL" for clears instead of "C", unlike the other games' threads-- any thoughts on changing it?

[KirbyComment]

How sneaky of you! I didn't even notice these. I'll have to plan my vengeance.

Also, I've written a thing which my fellow (and hopefully future) poddophiles can perhaps learn something from.

http://pastebin.com/PAMXUkBS

It's just an explanation of various things I've learned about boss attacks and spell points over the years, ranging from the stupidly obvious to the relatively obscure. I may attempt to write about other things if I can find the motivation.

-

another edit: I look back on times like this, and it's kind of amazing to me how much of what once mystified me is now explained. Surreal.

Oh dear. I sense incoming scores that destroy mine now...

Heh, this game sure is mysterious and bizarre at times. There's just so many things you won't really notice while playing.

KirbyComment, you might want to make a new post instead of editing an old post, if the thread is dropping so far back-- this thread and the SoEW thread were so far down that they were off-screen when I loaded the forum, so I wasn't seeing the "new" on the threads.

On an unrelated note, I've noticed this thread uses "ALL" for clears instead of "C", unlike the other games' threads-- any thoughts on changing it?

Oh, ok. I just edited my post because it was the most recent post. But I'll just make new posts instead next time (and yeah, the PoDD and SoEW threads were pretty low in the list  :V).

As far as the clears go, I think "C" works better because I believe every other thread does it as well.  I guess it doesn't really matter whether people use "ALL" or "C", but I wouldn't mind changing it.


Easy - Chiyuri
KirbyComment - 25,455,740 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Chiyuri
KirbyComment - 50,719,830 - C - AutofireOff - Replay

Normal - Yumemi
KirbyComment - 26,881,610 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Yumemi
KirbyComment - 35,342,130 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

[Zil]

Switching to C would probably make sense, yes.

I can't get the emulator to work so I'm afraid my vengeance is postponed indefinitely.

[KirbyComment]

Switching to C would probably make sense, yes.

I can't get the emulator to work so I'm afraid my vengeance is postponed indefinitely.

Yes! That was my plan all along
Can't you just do System Restore to a point where it did work?


Normal - Marisa
KirbyComment - 35,861,670 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

[Zil]

Maybe, though I wouldn't know where to go back to. The times in my life when anex has actually worked properly are like small oases in a sprawling wasteland. Fortunately, I did get it working.

Normal - Reimu
Zil - 42,320,440 - C - AutofireOff - Screen 1 Screen 2

Normal - Yumemi
Zil - 41,587,590 - C - AutofireOff - Screen 1 Screen 2

About 30 seconds into the first round against Chiyuri, the game spontaneously alt tabbed itself. By the time I managed to open it again (a task made difficult by my cursor having become invisible) I'd already died. I'll say that cost maybe 5m. The run otherwise seemed pretty solid, though I'm not really sure what's good or bad for this mode.

[KirbyComment]

Whoa! You're destroying my scores again. I'm especially suprised by your Yumemi score. How did you get that lucky? When I do Yumemi runs, it seems like during the early stages everyone dies significantly faster than playing as most other characters, so that doesn't help for scoring. Also, do you always suicide at Yumemi until you have 1 extra live left on Normal? Is that the most optimal thing to do. I assume so, but I'd like to have it confirmed...

[Zil]

I find that Yumemi is less dangerous to the AI than Reimu, personally. Her spell is also incredible. Best in the game, perhaps, though you need to pay attention to when you use it. It's almost like setting off Kotohime's spell at the press of a button, and it's guaranteed to be in the upper center of the screen every time.

I don't know what an ideal distribution of suicides would be on this mode. I'm just doing it whenever it feels appropriate. If a round is going really well I may just try win to secure a big clear bonus.

Normal - Ellen
Zil - 49,155,350 - C - AutofireOff - Screen1 Screen2

Normal - Kana
Zil - 42,577,970 - C - AutofireOff - Screen1 Screen2

[KirbyComment]

What do you mean with being careful when using Yumemi's spell? Are there times that setting off a Level 2 spell is bad and when it is the best time to use a Level 2 spell?

Also, I can now clearly see that your scoring skills have become way better than when you got the scores that I beat. Very good job! It makes me curious to see what the runs were like when you got these scores...

[Zil]

I just mean watch for when it's very likely the spell will be reflected. For instance, using it just after the opponent clears away the current pattern. It's especially important with Yumemi's spell because the duration is so short. If you use it at a bad time, you'll get almost nothing back. Basically, due to its speed and the way all of the bullets appear in the same place every time you have a lot of control over it.

And I haven't been streaming these runs since it's kind of a hassle, but I can do it from now on.

edit: Here we go.

Normal - Marisa
Zil - 53,852,230 - C - AutofireOff - Video (No Miss)

I was only hoping for 40-something, especially after the terrible first few stages, but that Yumemi was splendid. I think that's the highest clear bonus I've ever seen. Over 15 million!
Also a note to myself, at 5:30 in this run there's an excellent example of repeated boss attacks with over 300k spell points.

[KirbyComment]

Wow! 

I've never seen a clear bonus that huge before! And I thought the 10 million clears on Lunatic were already insane.
Well, guess what category I'll never beat you in because of that :V

Normal - Rikako
KirbyComment - 38,505,500 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot1 - Screenshot2

I kinda tried to get a Yumemi clear during a round that was good enough (so I could get big bonuses at the end). I could've done it during the first round, except that I was pinned in by crosses which made it impossible to avoid them and thus died. I still think this one isn't going to get any better (for me anyways).

[Zil]

That's unbelievable. Don't expect me to beat it anytime soon.

e:

Normal - Rikako
Zil - 39,398,240 - C - AutofireOff - Video

I was able to grind it out. Yumemi was extremely uncooperative but that's normal. I did have a very good Kana/Chiyuri though. I had an earlier run where the first round went pretty well, but the last was awful so the clear bonus sucked and the early game was also nothing special.

[KirbyComment]

That's unbelievable. Don't expect me to beat it anytime soon.

I expected you to anyways and I was right.

Anyways, I lost my patience with Normal Mode attempts at the moment, so I decided to do attempts on Hard.

Hard - Reimu
KirbyComment - 53,850,360 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot1 - Screenshot2

So not bad for a first 1cc clear I think. Mima kicked my butt twice and then first round Yumemi happened apparently. I've never first rounded Yumemi on Normal and I do it first try on Hard....sure!

[t_prinny]

Some stuff I did.

Normal - Reimu
Prinny - 33,220,530 - 9 - AutofireOff - Video

Hard - Kana
Prinny - 41,372,150 - 9 - AutofireOff - Video

I think I'll avoid spamming level 2s unless conditions are favorable. I think I end up killing myself more because of that in a few recent runs I had. Also messed up more than I wanted to in the Kana run.

[KirbyComment]

Hard - Mima
KirbyComment - 59,898,330 - 9 - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Screw this.

Easy - Chiyuri
KirbyComment - 31,545,430 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

[Zil]

I've learned something. It seems that if you start a small combo too quickly after another one ends, your spell points reset almost immediately after the second combo ends. It's most noticeable when dealing with patterns that essentially appear as two sets, since you can't wait for them to move together so you need to combo the sets separately to keep your spell points. What you want to do is, after the first combo finishes, wait until just before your spell points start flashing, and then set off the second combo. It's like there's some sort of rhythm to it that the game wants you to follow.

Hard - Ellen
Zil - 74,175,680 - C - AutofireOff - Screen1 Screen2

So my Ellen score on this mode had been a game over since... mid 2013. The Kotohime score also seems pretty low. Might play her and Chiyuri a bit.

[KirbyComment]

Normal - Mima
KirbyComment - 42,480,970 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Normal - Kotohime
KirbyComment - 44,824,870 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot - Replay

[Zil]

Normal - Mima
Zil - 45,648,290 - C - AutofireOff - Video

Awful Yumemi.

Normal - Kotohime
KirbyComment - 44,824,870 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Why not link the video?

[KirbyComment]

Why not link the video?

I decided to make this a highlight after I posted the score, so it's fixed now.

[Karisa]

Normal - Mima
Zil - 45,658,290 - C - AutofireOff - Video

[url=http://45,658,290]Video[/url]

That doesn't seem like a video to me.

[Zil]

Whoops. Fixed.

[KirbyComment]

Normal - Mima
Zil - 45,658,290 - C - AutofireOff - Video

I noticed that this run's score is 45,648,290, not 45,658,290

[Zil]

Christ, I'm falling apart.

[KirbyComment]

Normal - Kana
KirbyComment - 35,730,480 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot

Didn't really accomplish anything today.

[KirbyComment]

Hard - Marisa
KirbyComment - 63,213,160 - C - AutofireOff - Screenshot - Replay

Replay was muted because I forgot to unmute the game audio when I switched games :V