Author Topic: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III  (Read 239507 times)

Yatakarasu

  • Always failing, sometimes winning!
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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #630 on: October 30, 2012, 11:16:09 PM »
Fucking Ichirin. Sometimes I lose 0-1 lives on her, and other times I lose 4.  :getdown:

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #631 on: October 30, 2012, 11:48:51 PM »
Guys, please tell me I'm not the only one who does this;

> *Dies with full bombs*
> ''OH YEAH WELL FUCK YOU''
> *Bombs when re-spawned for NO reasons other than petty revenge*
> *Boss doesn't die*
> ''I hate you ;___;''
> *Tackles it (thus dying again)*
> Rinse and repeat


...I'm probably the only one who does this all the time. And I wonder why I can't clear UFO on normal...

Yatakarasu

  • Always failing, sometimes winning!
  • Fail mode activate!
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #632 on: October 31, 2012, 12:06:24 AM »
Sometimes I'll just bomb for no reason after dying in an attempt to make myself feel better for dying with full bombs.

Normal Clears: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Hard Clears: PoFV, SA, TD, DDC
Extra Clears: PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC
Current touhou goal: Improve! ...1cc more Hard Modes

Goldom

  • Whee
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #633 on: October 31, 2012, 12:58:19 AM »
Mesh of Light and Dark. I'm totally walled in by lasers and about to get hit. So I hit X and run to move to a better area. But the second I hit X, I get a border. It breaks instead of bombing, and I run face-first into the laser in front of me.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #634 on: October 31, 2012, 02:02:47 AM »
Mesh of Light and Dark. I'm totally walled in by lasers and about to get hit. So I hit X and run to move to a better area. But the second I hit X, I get a border. It breaks instead of bombing, and I run face-first into the laser in front of me.

This sort of thing, where I try to bomb the moment I get a border, has happened far, far too many times to me. And i raeg evry tiem.

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #635 on: October 31, 2012, 02:24:59 AM »
Sometimes I'll just bomb for no reason after dying in an attempt to make myself feel better for dying with full bombs.

I seriously want to rip my hair out every time I die with all my bombs. It's basically saying ''Hah, you could totally have survived this and 4 other deadly attacks, but you didn't!''

LadyScarlet

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #636 on: October 31, 2012, 03:30:45 AM »
Had a pretty good PCB trial run until Alice boss. Then it became a trainwreck. Made it with two lives. Died/bombed to pretty much everything. Kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me.  :colonveeplusalpha:
My Youtube Channel. I mostly upload Hisoutensoku videos.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #637 on: October 31, 2012, 07:23:19 AM »
Tried to pacify IN stage 3 Lunatic. Holy shit. The stage portion is impossible. I challenge anyone to do this.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 07:37:51 AM by Star King »

Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #638 on: October 31, 2012, 08:18:42 AM »
Tried to pacify IN stage 3 Lunatic. Holy shit. The stage portion is impossible. I challenge anyone to do this.
Naut's one step ahead of you.

I think it might be doable on normal, (or it maybe was done on normal, IIRC) but the higher difficulties are already impossible, and even normal is quite hard.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #639 on: October 31, 2012, 04:14:27 PM »
I got a game over at Satori in practice mode. :colonveeplusalpha:
Getting clipped since Feb. 2012.

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Sakurei

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #640 on: November 01, 2012, 03:59:29 AM »
> starts UFO lunatic run.
> bombs everything remarkly difficult,
> dies to everything not bombed
> game over on varjia.

I know just last week, someone told e I could do UFo if I worked on it, but eh - I can't dodge anything in that game consistently :V anything.

to show you how bad it is: I regularly die on gold detector. that's the 2nd spell in the whole game. yeah, me so pro.

Zil

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #641 on: November 01, 2012, 04:45:32 AM »
> starts UFO lunatic run.
> bombs everything remarkly difficult,
> dies to everything not bombed
> game over on varjia.
This could be translated into:

> Dodge nothing
> Clear most of the game

So just learn a couple spells, abuse every resource at your disposal, and learn a few tricks. You'll beat the game in no time.

Cor

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #642 on: November 01, 2012, 04:50:39 AM »
Zil's right. You can 1cc UFO if you work on it. I can't dodge for shit, it's a game of resource management for me.
to show you how bad it is: I regularly die on gold detector. that's the 2nd spell in the whole game. yeah, me so pro.
Please. I die on the first spell.

I have no name

  • Dodge ALL the bullets
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #643 on: November 01, 2012, 04:54:43 AM »
I can't dodge for shit, it's a game of resource management for me.
I can, but it's still resource management because I suck at Ichirin.

Also: 9/18 Gold Detector.  I have so few tries at this so far but at the same time no satisfactory runs have gotten past midboss Kogasa.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #644 on: November 01, 2012, 09:00:16 AM »
SA is fun :
> stage 4, dies 3 times during stage portion because apparently I forgot how to stream
> stage 5, gets rammed twice by Rin while trying to collect stuff

Well well well...

Sakurei

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #645 on: November 01, 2012, 10:55:43 AM »
the fact that I didn't dodge anything (except busy rod, sinking anchor and eternally anchored ghost ships - no kidding. those were the only spells I captured in that run) makes the run very unsatisfying, though. I really don't want to have a bomb spam like...in every other game I cleared; seriously :v not to mention the amounts of nons I bombed/died to

I know you're right, Zil. If I learned some spells I could probably clear it, but the thing is that even after "learning" a spell I fuck it up in the actual runs. I coudl clear it 10 in a row in practice and then die 10 times to it in the actual runs. that's how it rols with me :v

though, overall I think I can get that clear this month. (horray for november just having begun :V)

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #646 on: November 01, 2012, 11:49:43 AM »
I can, but it's still resource management because I suck at Ichirin.

Also: 9/18 Gold Detector.  I have so few tries at this so far but at the same time no satisfactory runs have gotten past midboss Kogasa.

If you can dodge reasonably well you should have no problems getting past midboss Kogasa without dying. If satisfactory translates into chaining UFO's optimally you need to let that pointless survival-optimization obsession go. It doens't benefit you. And guys. Even if you do die then keep going. Restarting over mistakes is retarded. (Though i could understand that you'd restart if you died in Stage 1 but that should hardly happen at all no matter who you are)

I know you're right, Zil. If I learned some spells I could probably clear it, but the thing is that even after "learning" a spell I fuck it up in the actual runs. I coudl clear it 10 in a row in practice and then die 10 times to it in the actual runs. that's how it rols with me :v

I know how that feels. It's always easier to perform well in practice runs since it's just a no-pressure practice run with no consequences for fucking things up. Take this advice from a person who sucks at shmups, because really I do - my consistency is very awful: Try your best to dodge in every situation. Try not to think of things as auto-bombs unless they are things you absolutely cannot do. Learn the cards to the best of your ability and try your best to capture them in the full runs but maintain awareness of your situation and the moment you can't keep up with the pattern no longer, bomb it.

I have no name

  • Dodge ALL the bullets
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #647 on: November 01, 2012, 05:29:57 PM »
If you can dodge reasonably well you should have no problems getting past midboss Kogasa without dying. If satisfactory translates into chaining UFO's optimally you need to let that pointless survival-optimization obsession go. It doens't benefit you. And guys. Even if you do die then keep going. Restarting over mistakes is retarded. (Though i could understand that you'd restart if you died in Stage 1 but that should hardly happen at all no matter who you are)
I'm not even demanding optimality, just not dying stupidly.  I actually need those lives, and my current reset criteria...is dying before midboss Kogasa ends or 2 deaths in Stage 2.  Stage 3 I fully expect to be a disaster, but 4 and 5 I can handle reasonably well and then 6 is bomb everything.  That last line is just insulting, EVERYONE dies in Stage 1 sometimes, even Riz.

Sakurei

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #648 on: November 01, 2012, 09:27:18 PM »
> gives UFO lunatic another try

> practice stage 2: ND2B > run, stage 2: 1D2B - I can live with that, really.
> practice stage 3: 2DNB > run, stage 3: 4D2B - what_the_fuck happened there? death against kraken, 2nd non AND hook combo? plus a death in the stage PLUS two goddamned bombs in the stage. I don't even...conclusion: get fucking consistent of that stage 3 boss
> practice stage 4: 1DNB > run, stage 4: 2D3B - To be honest, it was the stage. due to fucking up ichirin so bad, I was left with 1 power when I got into stage 4. things turned bad. nueball killed be, because I couldn't kill a fairy with 1 power and it crashed me :v other death was clip, 2 bombs for ufo collecting, 1 bomb for 3rd non. captured all of murasa's spellcards, though. I've gotten pretty good at this boss fight. might wann find a UFO collect route without boming like a madman

> practice stage 5: 6DNB (yeah, I know :'D) > run, stage 5: 2D3B (game over :v) - the funny thing about this is that I had a perfect nazrin and post-nazrin (THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE :V). I was wondering how the fuck I captured greatest treasure; or how I survived post nazrin when I had completely lost track of everything (no bombs left :V), but eh; the run was almost lost at this point, so I don't gain anything from it.
shou's 3rd non finished me off. I've actually come to a poitn where I can ND2B shou herself; in an optimal fight. but they don't come often

IF I WASN'T AN OBSTINATE AND STUBBORN BASTARD, I WOULD SAY "FUCK THIS SHIT :V" but you know, I've said that many times before and still managed to do what I was planning to, so I won't let this, where I can bomb to my heart's content, get me to that point :v
> hates bombing because of inability. planned bombs are fine, though. I have often eaten deaths because of that, though.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #649 on: November 01, 2012, 10:44:37 PM »
You'll beat the game in no time.
I dislike statements like this because they trivialize the accomplishment.

Either that or they stem from a queer notion of what constitutes a long time.
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #650 on: November 01, 2012, 11:13:10 PM »
Not really KB. The way I see it, it's more of a way to say: 'Go for it, you can definitely beat this'.

I'm not even demanding optimality, just not dying stupidly.  I actually need those lives, and my current reset criteria...is dying before midboss Kogasa ends or 2 deaths in Stage 2.  Stage 3 I fully expect to be a disaster, but 4 and 5 I can handle reasonably well and then 6 is bomb everything.  That last line is just insulting, EVERYONE dies in Stage 1 sometimes, even Riz.

Any death at that time of the game is pretty stupid, sorry to say. Nazrin's spells are either memorizable and they are perfectly dodgable without memo too. The biggest thing that I could understand that people looking to clear the game would have trouble with is Nazrin's final but if that is really being such a problem then you guys should bomb it.

As for the last line; I said that it should hardly happen, as in: not very often. I'm not saying it can't happen but it just shouldn't happen very often because it's a simple stage with no spells that should challenge a person who is capable of clearing Lunatic modes. I don't know how often Riz dies on Stage 1 but my impression is that it doesn't happen very often. He's a better player than I am and I can't remember last time I died on Stage 1 except for that time when I tried 90FPS where I got killed at the end of the final card.

I'm not posting this to pick on you but because I know what you are capable of. You died pretty well on HGS so your dodging isn't half bad. Make a plan for how to no-miss the first two stages. Is Nazrin's final giving you dumb deaths? Just bomb that shit then.

@Sakurei: Keep it going mate. :)

RNG

  • Lord of all that Bullshits
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #651 on: November 01, 2012, 11:17:46 PM »
For those of you complaining about being bad at Stage 1, do you really want to see my spellcard records?

Of course you don't. But I will tell you my cap rate for Hello Forgotten World is less than half, and I'm more consistent at Superhuman and Sinkable Vortex than I am on Dipper Creeping Close.

And Zengy, how many restarts did you have for your first UFO clear? I guarantee you it was probably about 700, and most of those didn't make it to the Stage 1 boss. That's kind of how shmups work - most of your runs are aborted within a minute. It's nothing to be ashamed of, and if you give people the impression that they shouldn't be having that sort of trouble you're just causing them to doubt themselves. I would consider myself a pretty good Touhou player, good enough to clear UFO LN, but only 1/3 of my attempts made it to Busy Rod.

chum

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #652 on: November 01, 2012, 11:24:02 PM »
I dislike statements like this because they trivialize the accomplishment.

Either that or they stem from a queer notion of what constitutes a long time.

I disagree, it really depends on who you'd direct it towards. Apparently, Sakurai died 9 times and bombed 10 times in his run... Imagine if he actually used all of his bombs. He would have cleared. So he could definitely 1cc very quickly and with relative ease.

Any death at that time of the game is pretty stupid, sorry to say. Nazrin's spells are either memorizable and they are perfectly dodgable without memo too. The biggest thing that I could understand that people looking to clear the game would have trouble with is Nazrin's final but if that is really being such a problem then you guys should bomb it.

As for the last line; I said that it should hardly happen, as in: not very often. I'm not saying it can't happen but it just shouldn't happen very often because it's a simple stage with no spells that should challenge a person who is capable of clearing Lunatic modes.

The spells aren't difficult at all, but I find myself constantly messing up UFO summoning and such, I'm sure others do the same. Besides, It's the first stage so a restart hardly wastes any time, this means that you can play recklessly and have fun, which does result in more deaths. UFO's first stage is simply a lot twitchier than most, too, it makes sense to die in it fairly often.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #653 on: November 01, 2012, 11:45:45 PM »
And Zengy, how many restarts did you have for your first UFO clear? I guarantee you it was probably about 700, and most of those didn't make it to the Stage 1 boss. That's kind of how shmups work - most of your runs are aborted within a minute.

My playing style might be a bit different then. I've probably not put more credits into it than 2 or 3 before getting my first clear. I did have over 100s of hours of playtime before getting the clear though because I rather wanted to practice it.

Also, I generally make a point of not restarting unless what I'm doing is severely messed up. My Busy Rod capture rate for SanaeB is 22/27 and 11/13 for ReimuA. Do keep in mind that i've also done 90FPS runs of the stage and more 1cc's after my first one.

108/147 for Hello Forgotten World though. What I do is to make a hell of a lot of practice runs to get as good at the different patterns as I can. Or I just do a lot of practice runs to play against that one boss I fancy at the moment. Kogasa is a great example of this. I find her enjoyable just as I do other bosses in this game but I find Nazrin to be dull and boring so I've only practiced her enough to be sure to NMNB her every time.

Most of the time I simply don't care for full runs because those involve playing through the boring parts of the game. I'm probably alone in this style of playing though. I don't consider myself good at all because I take my mistakes very seriously (unfortunately too seriously but i can't help it) and I prefer to grind the parts of the game I find the most fun for a long ass time before getting the clear. That's how I roll. :V

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #654 on: November 02, 2012, 12:48:13 AM »
You guys are right.  I took it the wrong way.  I'm just a sourpuss who broods over how much time he lost on a stupid item-dodging game.
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Cor

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #655 on: November 02, 2012, 12:57:09 AM »
I can totally vouch for "most of your runs are aborted within a minute". I miss collecting a token at the right second, I blow a UFO up a second too late, miss out on two power before the midboss, accidentally don't kill the fairy before the midboss, collect the wandering token during the midboss spell as the wrong color one, forget to/mess up delaying the token's color change to change its path, get hit while trying to avoid collecting the token during the midboss spell etc etc.

I have no name

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Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #656 on: November 02, 2012, 02:15:35 AM »
As for the last line; I said that it should hardly happen, as in: not very often. I'm not saying it can't happen but it just shouldn't happen very often because it's a simple stage with no spells that should challenge a person who is capable of clearing Lunatic modes. I don't know how often Riz dies on Stage 1 but my impression is that it doesn't happen very often. He's a better player than I am and I can't remember last time I died on Stage 1 except for that time when I tried 90FPS where I got killed at the end of the final card.

I'm not posting this to pick on you but because I know what you are capable of. You died pretty well on HGS so your dodging isn't half bad. Make a plan for how to no-miss the first two stages. Is Nazrin's final giving you dumb deaths? Just bomb that shit then.
I die quite frequently on Gold Detector, Riz's streams have a surprising amount of Stage 1 resets (i.e., more than mine, I get to Nazrin basically every run according to plan now), I've been bombing Nazrin's last spell, I have a plan to no death the first 2 stages but I'm willing to accept a Kogasa-death.

My overall strategy for approaching this is learn the stage parts to 4 and 5 as best I can so that once I get a run past Stage 2, I can do ok in 3 then beast 4 and 5 and bomb Murasa and Shou giving me enough lives/bombs to bomb through Byakuren since I consistently only die once to LFS.  So an attempt session consits of refreshing those 2 stages then grinding out an attempt that makes sufficient progress, I figure I'll learn Stage 2 reasonably well this way (and in fact, I have learned how to do the pre-Kogasa midboss stuff).

Zil

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #657 on: November 02, 2012, 05:14:14 AM »
Not really KB. The way I see it, it's more of a way to say: 'Go for it, you can definitely beat this'.
Yeah, this is really all I meant. Just some kind of silly encouragement. I think Sakurei's definitely good enough to clear the game with some practice. He's been cranking out so many NMNB stage runs, etc.
Then again, I do often imply that the game is a lot easier than most people make it out to be, so I can see how that comes across as trivializing the accomplishment. I'd say the same thing about pretty much every game in the series though, so I'm not just singling out UFO.
Rather I'm trivializing all of them. Ack. It's something I firmly believe though. People tend to view them as a test of reflexes, pure skill, etc. I think memorization takes you much further. (90fps runs gave me this mentality.) Maybe my point isn't all that good though. I say memorization makes things easy, but I guess you could also say that memo is the "high effort" approach to something while just trying to dodge it is easy, even if the actual dodging is hard. So when I say "It's easy if you memorize a bunch of tricks," I guess someone else might say "okay, but the memorization itself is difficult." Hmm. Maybe my perception is a little borked. I've been enjoying the hated Psikyo games, after all.


Since we're talking about practice in here, my usual method is to learn strategies for each stage and practice them repeatedly, then do full runs with no restarts, regardless of screw-ups, because I never really know how I'll perform on something until I've done it in a real run (and I get nervous so easily). Once I've determined what kind of performance is actually "mandatory," I'll restart if I think I've made too many mistakes for the run to have any hope.
My overall strategy for approaching this is learn the stage parts to 4 and 5 as best I can so that once I get a run past Stage 2, I can do ok in 3 then beast 4 and 5 and bomb Murasa and Shou giving me enough lives/bombs to bomb through Byakuren since I consistently only die once to LFS.  So an attempt session consits of refreshing those 2 stages then grinding out an attempt that makes sufficient progress, I figure I'll learn Stage 2 reasonably well this way (and in fact, I have learned how to do the pre-Kogasa midboss stuff).
So this would be a bad approach, in my opinion. Not only do you get no real practice in the last stages, but the restarts are really uncalled for (especially with such strict requirements). But... eh. Everyone practices differently. I wouldn't want to try to tell people what to do there. (Though I will say this - if you you admit to frequently messing up stage 1, even being offended when Zengeku said it should happen infrequently, do you think you will have the consistency to "beast" stages 4 and 5 so reliably, and die only once to LFS, having only experienced them in practice mode?)
Most of the time I simply don't care for full runs because those involve playing through the boring parts of the game.
I was the same before I kinda stopped playing them altogether. PoDD/FV aside, I think none of them have been cleared more than 5 times, and some just once. Actually, I think that may in fact be a very common mentality for anyone who doesn't play for score. Just judging from the usual discussion on this forum, at least. I think it's strange, in a way.

Bleh. Another wall of text. In any event, no offense intended.

I have no name

  • Dodge ALL the bullets
Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #658 on: November 02, 2012, 05:29:58 AM »
So this would be a bad approach, in my opinion.
It's worked for me (TD being a prime example of this) and yes, in an actual run I was consistent enough at everything I needed to dodge in those 2 stages.

I keep messing up Stage 1 because it's so easy-I lose focus and mess up on something because of that.  Well, that and silly derps that can happen anywhere.

Stage 2 is tricky but that's because I haven't felt like learning it-for Stage 2 I find it best to learn in actual runs with resources from Stage 1.

Stage 3 I hate and don't want to play at all and that' why I haven't practiced it for UFO, and Stage 6 I already did a grindfest of and the stage part is trivial enough anyway.

So what I'm doing is making sure I'm fresh on the challenging parts later in the game then trying to push for 1 good run to get there and rely on the memory of how to approach it to get me through without much loss (additionally running half of practice runs as in-run simulations helps somewhat).  This is what got me through TD, and that method of resetting to dumb deaths in Stage 2 got me through SA pretty handily.

To each their own though, I might turn my attention to a few perfects before returning to this because of Stage 2/3.

Re: Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III
« Reply #659 on: November 02, 2012, 08:08:19 AM »
Bleh. Another wall of text. In any event, no offense intended.
I tried to take it back before it came to this!

A degree of precision is still required for some hard-memorized sections.  So, those are still skill-based, even if the only skill left is tapping.  It's simply that what's tricky for one person to tap through can be a cinch for someone much better, so it can be said that those sections are no longer skill-based for the better player.  But not everyone is the better player.  And, of course, that's leaving aside sections and patterns with any degree of variability, as those can only be soft-memorized and still require a player's full skill set when things get hairy.

Easy to you, easier-yet-still-challenging to others.

Anyway, memo is still time-consuming.  Especially if you aren't able to run hourglass and savestate-practice.

Finally, neither easy nor quick would be among words I'd use to describe torture.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 08:11:15 AM by K.B. »
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through