Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Patchouli's Scarlet Library => Topic started by: H4xolotl on September 22, 2014, 04:17:29 AM
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Some tips I've seen around the touhou community;
1) Don't write about overpowered megademons sealed by Flandre
2) Don't use OCs unless you enjoy shooting yourself in the foot.
3) No men. Ever.
Are there any more things to avoid? Do readers like or dislike fanworks with FEMALE gappers?
Thanks!
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I'd disagree with excluding OCs and men necessarily - like many other things, it's all about execution. Men can be just fine; it's the overuse of "hapless self-insert ends up in Gensokyo, is inexplicably popular with his waifu" that makes me wince. OCs can also be just fine; it's the "watch as my OC has Watatsuki-level degrees of Mary Sue-ness" that has been done to death. You get the picture.
Like any other medium, in writing, there are templates that have been done many, many times. Using them with imagination is what matters. But generally speaking, I would avoid:
- Crossovers. I mean please stop.
- References to fanon-only character traits.
- Including Chen in anything but being bullied.
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I'd disagree with excluding OCs and men necessarily - like many other things, it's all about execution. Men can be just fine; it's the overuse of "hapless self-insert ends up in Gensokyo, is inexplicably popular with his waifu" that makes me wince. OCs can also be just fine; it's the "watch as my OC has Watatsuki-level degrees of Mary Sue-ness" that has been done to death. You get the picture.
Like any other medium, in writing, there are templates that have been done many, many times. Using them with imagination is what matters. But generally speaking, I would avoid:
- Crossovers. I mean please stop.
- References to fanon-only character traits.
- Including Chen in anything but being bullied.
Ah, thats some pretty insightful thoughts I agree with. I agree its always about execution, but still think if you had applied the same levels of execution to something that didn't include those pitfalls you'd have something even better :)
What do you mean by "Fanon-only character traits"? Do you mean things that simply don't belong in Gensokyo like Game of Thrones levels of sadism etc?
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Characters getting turned into kids. Seriously, there are dozens of stories like this for some reason. :V
Yukari introducing plot devices "because she was bored".
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I cannot think of a single "never do this" trope I haven't broken other then the "avoid men in story defining roles" one. And I've seen a fic that did that one well too. This is because tropes are rather weak literary critique advice. It's far better to focus on what a writer must do and not do to avoid a bad fanwork. Which brings me to the two most common mistakes I think of.
1 - The writer of a fanfiction must write a story.
Early fanfics tend to be disjointed messes. People trying to copy doujin, movies, 4koma and other non book media. This doesn't work, your story is a short story (or novel) and must follow the style and conventions of a short story or novel. You need literary flow and proper setting detail, not just a string of jokes.
2 - The writer of a Touhou fanfiction must write Touhou fanfiction.
This sounds obvious, but it's one of the most common mistakes to make. Your audience came to read about Touhou, and will be displeased if you fail to deliver. Are all the characters fanon cardboard cutouts? You'll get support from the 'lol I get that joke crowd' but general disdain from everyone else. Is the story about your OCs with Touhou characters as background decoration and trophy wives? That's not Touhou and no one cares about your fantasies (unless you're writing porn). Your story must contain enough Touhou to be immediately recognizable as Touhou, whether that be characters, setting or even just style.
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I cannot think of a single "never do this" trope I haven't broken other then the "avoid men in story defining roles" one. And I've seen a fic that did that one well too.
...was it Sauro Dante?
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What do you mean by "Fanon-only character traits"?
I mean like, Alice being a tsundere, Kaguya being a NEET, Yuuka being a hypersadist and so forth. Fanon traits with more basis in memes than actual canon. A great many of the 2hus have canonical personalities that you can do a lot with, and even the characters that are mere thumbnail sketches can be potentially rich in the right hands.
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- Crossovers. I mean please stop.
:(
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...was it Sauro Dante?
The Harvest Incident. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5932.0)
The writing is... rough. I'm pretty sure the writer is not a native English speaker. But they do pretty much everything right for a male leading OC.
1 - The character fills a position that can't be duplicated by an existing Touhou character.
2 - There's no unneeded harem or waifu nonsense.
3 - The story fits the Touhou setting reasonably, and uses the existing characters well.
4 - The OC is well written as a character into themselves rather then a wish fulfillment piece.
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Characters getting turned into kids. Seriously, there are dozens of stories like this for some reason. :V
Yukari introducing plot devices "because she was bored".
Definitely seen this too much :P
Might even include incidents that involve Yukari in general. Half the fangames involve the greate Youkai sage Yukari doing something very very stupid.
1 - The writer of a fanfiction must write a story.
Early fanfics tend to be disjointed messes. People trying to copy doujin, movies, 4koma and other non book media. This doesn't work, your story is a short story (or novel) and must follow the style and conventions of a short story or novel. You need literary flow and proper setting detail, not just a string of jokes.
Interesting plots are definitely hard.
I mean like, Alice being a tsundere, Kaguya being a NEET, Yuuka being a hypersadist and so forth. Fanon traits with more basis in memes than actual canon. A great many of the 2hus have canonical personalities that you can do a lot with, and even the characters that are mere thumbnail sketches can be potentially rich in the right hands.
Oh these :P
I guess they still have a place in lighter stories though.
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What I come up with is well-researched and essentially canon, do not contradict it. What others come up with fanon pulled from their asses, you may contradict that as you please.
More usefully, I do recommending avoiding the "This new threat is the most powerfulest ever!!!". It never ends well.
Another I would give is to understand what Touhou is supposed to be. Understand the themes in it that are important, and don't discard them lightly.. For instance, one of the important things is that most touhous end with Reimu having tea with one or more villains. This is because a major theme of the setting is that even when we fight and disagree, we still ultimately have to live together afterward. As such, stories that are ultimately about "we must destroy this thing forever" tend to look very weird unless This Thing is something terribly incompatible with Gensokyo. Writing something that discards a major theme takes a fair understanding of the rest of the setting in order for it to work, and it may not be salvageable. This is why grimdark touhous often (not always, but often) fail; people toss aside important things that aside from the setting and from the characters in order to be 2real4u.
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What I come up with is well-researched and essentially canon, do not contradict it. What others come up with fanon pulled from their asses, you may contradict that as you please.
More usefully, I do recommending avoiding the "This new threat is the most powerfulest ever!!!". It never ends well.
Another I would give is to understand what Touhou is supposed to be. Understand the themes in it that are important, and don't discard them lightly.. For instance, one of the important things is that most touhous end with Reimu having tea with one or more villains. This is because a major theme of the setting is that even when we fight and disagree, we still ultimately have to live together afterward. As such, stories that are ultimately about "we must destroy this thing forever" tend to look very weird unless This Thing is something terribly incompatible with Gensokyo. Writing something that discards a major theme takes a fair understanding of the rest of the setting in order for it to work, and it may not be salvageable. This is why grimdark touhous often (not always, but often) fail; people toss aside important things that aside from the setting and from the characters in order to be 2real4u.
just out of interest, have you read Yakumi Sarais work?
I think it it does the grimdark thing well without contradicting touhou ethos very well.
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3) No men. Ever.
Unless they are Rinnosuke, Unzan, Youki or Mr.Kirisame who we know exists but we've never met.
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just out of interest, have you read Yakumi Sarais work?
I think it it does the grimdark thing well without contradicting touhou ethos very well.
I have not! But as I said: Often, not always.
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just out of interest, have you read Yakumi Sarais work?
I think it it does the grimdark thing well without contradicting touhou ethos very well.
Zounose? He's kinda hit and miss in my opinion, but yeah he doesn't do standard grimdark which is his main selling point. Usually it ends up as "lets forget the spellcard rules exist for no damn good reason."
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This was pretty much said but don't fulfill tropes as some sort of 'checklist to success'. Things need to have purpose. If it doesn't accomplish anything, don't go out of your way to shoehorn it in. If you can incorporate it harmlessly and it doesn't stand out as 'why did he include this', then go for it.
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Well, there's not much a decent writer needs to avoid, but it'll be hard for your OC story to stand out among the hundred or so others just like it, for example. Best thing to do is read, see what everyone else is doing, and let that inform your writing.
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it's the "watch as my OC has Watatsuki-level degrees of Mary Sue-ness" that has been done to death.
This, too, isn't absolute since one of my favorite Touhou fics has an OC that is so powerful she could probably take on all the heavy hitters of Gensokyo at the same time.
And she outright killed Yuuka in the fic. ;)
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That sounds insufferable to me, but to each their own I guess.
None of these are absolute; they're guidelines. Making your self-insert overpowered OC the hero who defeats the 2hus is a good one to avoid.
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That sounds insufferable to me, but to each their own I guess.
None of these are absolute; they're guidelines. Making your self-insert overpowered OC the hero who defeats the 2hus is a good one to avoid.
What if your OC defeats all the canon characters... in a pie-eating contest. He is godlike at pie-eating (to the point of out-speeding Yuyuko, Yoshika, Aya and Sakuya combined) and takes it extremely seriously, but he's the only person who does so - everyone else is just kind of weirded out. :V
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OK that I would read. Point conceded.
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Making your self-insert overpowered OC the hero who defeats the 2hus is a good one to avoid.
My (half built) OC isn't a self-insert, but she is a player character in my game that defeats all the 2hus using spell cards stolen (ahem, imitated) from the other characters.
....I don't think this counts at all.
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Just keep me curious about whatever you are making, I don't care about anything else. (read nearly nothing yet)
And, thinking in tropes is not a good thing, unless you want to organise things that others have written.
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Tengukami by "hapless self-insert ends up in Gensokyo, is inexplicably popular with his waifu" are you talking about people who make themselves a character in their story that end up in gensokyo?
Any tips on getting the characters canon personalities? It might be because I haven't wrote anything in years but I have this fear of failing the story and the characters, but to be fair it could just be my lack of experience and practice. Maybe I should avoid making males characters, I always end up making them generic, but if my female characters on Soul Cal 5 show anything I think I'll have a better time creating a female for a story... maybe.
Actually I've noticed that a lot of people use Yukari as a plot device and someone who caused something to happen, but with in the games she really hasn't done anything aside from the PCB barrier but she still wasn't the true culprit in it. Since she loves gensokyo so much I doubt she would try to do anything that could put it in danger, I think she learned her lesson back when she lead a revolt IIRC.
My (half built) OC isn't a self-insert, but she is a player character in my game that defeats all the 2hus using spell cards stolen (ahem, imitated) from the other characters.
....I don't think this counts at all.
Like maybe a Mimic Youkai or something? I've been trying to come up with way for a weak character to still manage to beat the OGs using the rules for the spell cards, like maybe using the time limit rules or something.
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Tengukami by "hapless self-insert ends up in Gensokyo, is inexplicably popular with his waifu" are you talking about people who make themselves a character in their story that end up in gensokyo?
More like, the self-insert ends up in Gensokyo, and the author's waifu falls madly in love/lust with them. But it's rare to find such a story in the wild.
Any tips on getting the characters canon personalities? It might be because I haven't wrote anything in years but I have this fear of failing the story and the characters, but to be fair it could just be my lack of experience and practice. Maybe I should avoid making males characters, I always end up making them generic, but if my female characters on Soul Cal 5 show anything I think I'll have a better time creating a female for a story... maybe.
One thing I do is, once I know what characters I'm using, I'll open up their wiki page as a starting point for links to their canon appearances, deeds and words. You might not always need to do this, but I like to have it handy as a reference point, just to be on the safe side.
Actually I've noticed that a lot of people use Yukari as a plot device and someone who caused something to happen, but with in the games she really hasn't done anything aside from the PCB barrier but she still wasn't the true culprit in it. Since she loves gensokyo so much I doubt she would try to do anything that could put it in danger, I think she learned her lesson back when she lead a revolt IIRC.
Very true. Yukari has become something of a reverse deus ex machina for a lot of Touhou fan fiction.
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That worries me :V I've spent a lot of time writing a lengthy fanfic that centres around Yukari, actually, that I've been working up the courage to post here. hopefully people are only sick of her in the "flimsy excuse for the rest of the plot" way and not as the central protagonist of a piece.
I would say on the subject of OCs, making them able to defeat other characters is fine, but if it's a walk-over that's not a very exciting story. If they can just kill Yukari, Kanako, etc with minimal effort they're less interesting than if there's a struggle to it.
Of course, if it's a self-insert piece and you're mainly writing it for your own enjoyment, forget the rules! Having fun is more important :V
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Actually I've noticed that a lot of people use Yukari as a plot device and someone who caused something to happen, but with in the games she really hasn't done anything aside from the PCB barrier but she still wasn't the true culprit in it.
Yuyuko was the one who weakened the barrier; Yukari's only involvement was the protagonist bugging her to fix it (which it appears she never actually did). But basically, whenever Yukari gets involved it's to help resolve an incident, not to cause one (unless that incident is on the moon because screw those guys).
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Like maybe a Mimic Youkai or something? I've been trying to come up with way for a weak character to still manage to beat the OGs using the rules for the spell cards, like maybe using the time limit rules or something.
Said half-built OC is a fairy whose power comes from mimicry, like those walking stick insects that look like branches, or the camo for soldiers blending in with the environment, etc.
She can also mimic things herself, but it's severely limited and weak before the start on the game, where she can only mimic the colors of things. As the game goes on, she starts mimicking the bullet patterns of the characters she fights, in her goal to defeat everyone (that we know, at least) in Gensokyo.
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I think the earlier point about not writing in tropes is the best way to look at it. We could dissect the variations of tropes and whether they work or not, but the larger aim here is to tell your story. Tell like it is, in your language and your structures. It just has to be your voice.
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I would say on the subject of OCs, making them able to defeat other characters is fine, but if it's a walk-over that's not a very exciting story. If they can just kill Yukari, Kanako, etc with minimal effort they're less interesting than if there's a struggle to it.
Exactly.
And the story must also have well-written fight scenes that can make your blood boil.
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I've been thinking, so let's say that your player character is an OC in this game, and you're this close to beating X Touhou character, only for either her to "stop playing around" and turn the fight around effortlessly or a Diabolus ex Machina to straight up ruin your crap. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopelessBossFight) Would that just be a bad cop-out? Slightly relevant because story reasons might be involved.
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More like, the self-insert ends up in Gensokyo, and the author's waifu falls madly in love/lust with them. But it's rare to find such a story in the wild.
There's also the "waifu falls into self insert's lap and must be protected in real world" fic variant. And they're a dime a dozen on FF.net.
Very true. Yukari has become something of a reverse deus ex machina for a lot of Touhou fan fiction.
Yukari's kinda like Gensoukyo immigration enforcement really. Except her rules seem to be mostly "Mooninites and Celestials should suffer."
Re : Games
Games are different stylistically because of player control. If your design a touhou danmaku game where your OC flies about shooting other Touhou characters with danmaku, then most of the problems are gone, because you've kept narrative consistency and you avoid making the characters look too weak by giving them appropriate danmaku.
RPGs and text adventures on the other hand have more issues. Especially if "cutscenes" are involved. Then you have to deal with loss of agency. That's more of a game design thing though.
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Re : Games
Games are different stylistically because of player control. If your design a touhou danmaku game where your OC flies about shooting other Touhou characters with danmaku, then most of the problems are gone, because you've kept narrative consistency and you avoid making the characters look too weak by giving them appropriate danmaku.
RPGs and text adventures on the other hand have more issues. Especially if "cutscenes" are involved. Then you have to deal with loss of agency. That's more of a game design thing though.
The danmaku games seem the easiest to be able to avoid those problems, it's still fall into the spell card rules after all. The RPG part is something I've been brainstorming for months on how to best go about it, the best way I could think of is that if all the OG Touhou characters are bosses that give a good degree of challenge and are actually difficult to beat... but that could depend on who the main character is too. Ehh... there are many ways it could go I guess, I think I'm just trying to organize my own thoughts on how to tackle by typing it out or I'm slowly losing my sanity finally.
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I've been thinking, so let's say that your player character is an OC in this game, and you're this close to beating X Touhou character, only for either her to "stop playing around" and turn the fight around effortlessly or a Diabolus ex Machina to straight up ruin your crap. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopelessBossFight) Would that just be a bad cop-out? Slightly relevant because story reasons might be involved.
Two things:
1. Have you ever watched a boxing match? Some of the most exciting fights have consisted of one guy getting pummelled mercilessly for multiple rounds, only to find his second wind and come back swinging to victory in later rounds. So this much is totally plausible anyway. In my opinion, though, it would make for a more exciting read if both characters were internally struggling throughout the match, and the victory X Touhou Character achieved was solid, but still a close call.
2. I noticed you linked to TVT when referring to this part of your story. My advice would be to ignore what TVT has to say about different parts of your story and just ... write an engaging and entertaining story. I think it's counterproductive to check for what parts of your story fall under which categories of plot devices and templates, first of all, but more importantly, even the most established devices can be magic in the hands of a skilled creator. It's unavoidable that parts of your story may have been done before. It doesn't matter. What matters is doing it well.
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It's unavoidable that parts of your story may have been done before. It doesn't matter. What matters is doing it well.
I highly agree! One thing I hear a lot about youtube is that nothing is original, someone's done it before. Just cause it's been done before doesn't mean it can still be told in a different way.
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Well, sometimes I just like to check examples of certain tropes either done well or badly just so I have notes to compare to, and if I start seeing something in my concepts that are approaching one of the disastrous examples I can either preemptively cancel that shit or try thinking of something that can fix it. After all, first thing they tell you is that tropes are tools of the trade.
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After all, first thing they tell you is that tropes are tools of the trade.
Whoever "they" are, "they" should stop dispensing writing advice.
Certainly there are plot devices and character types which writers can and do use. But it is a mistake to try to write through the lens of what tropes you are using. You are not writing a series of tropes; you are writing a story. So write it. It will either work or not work. If you break your story down into being just a series of tropes, and examine those tropes individually for whether or not they work, you are ignoring the story as a whole - maybe each trope works but the story sucks.
Most important, who cares if you're using devices or templates that have been used before? The real question is: does your story as a whole work to engage the reader, whether you are using timeless devices or some innovative plot construction? Your story is more than the sum of its parts.
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After all, first thing they tell you is that tropes are tools of the trade.
And that is TVTropes biggest flaw.
At its heart TVTropes is a literary critique site. I would argue it's a very bad one, that ignores vast amounts of the historical literary critique surrounding it, but it's still a critique site. You cannot use trope like legos and create something. Rather when you rip the heart and soul and everything good out of your work, tropes are what is left. What you can use tropes for is looking at your work after and seeing if anything you don't want has crept into your work without you realizing it. And even then only so much. It's easy to be blind to your own faults.
Now what do you do if you do see a trope you don't like in your work? Well if its something simple, like "Crap, I described the evil nation as being darker skinned then the good nation. That's got shitty implications," then you can simply cut it out or revise it. But if your problem is "my MC is a Mary Sue," then you may need to look at your work as a whole. Because it's likely the core of your story is "look at how awesome my OC is," and that kinda story only flies with your buds at RPG night. Those kind of issues require fundamental alterations to the core story, not looking at the trope checklist and trying to "subvert" things.
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Huh, I'm actually glad I threw that out, I'm getting even more insight on this. So basically just try to go for something that flows well and makes sense as a whole instead of concentrating too hard on individual parts? I suppose that's a problem of mine, I've been making concepts in parts with only a vague image for the whole. It may be an issue of having a wrong mindset, as I viewed creating story concepts for games I'm planning to make similarly to tackling problems, and I've been too used to breaking down problems into parts first.
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Huh, I'm actually glad I threw that out, I'm getting even more insight on this. So basically just try to go for something that flows well and makes sense as a whole instead of concentrating too hard on individual parts?
Yeah, that's pretty much how I approach writing. I take it as a given that I'll be using certain devices or character types that have been used before, whether I'm aware of it or not. What matters to me is whether or not the reader engages with the story. Doing that has little to do with how well I use tropes, and more to do with bringing the story to life in the mind of the reader, which involves creating a coherent whole.
Like Iced points out, if you want to deconstruct your story through the lens of tropes after the fact, that's a different story, but even that will only get you so far in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your story.
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I suppose right now I need to work on my tendency to backpedal upon seeing a risk.